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Author Topic: Raiders and socials  (Read 572 times)

Grazzy

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  • Raiders and socials
    « on: March 26, 2019, 07:32:31 PM »
    Regarding the guild chat debate Sunday evening regarding socials and raiding, I’ll do a post here.

    “Our goal has been to create a pleasant environment for both social players and for those who enjoy raiding.”
    This is what I want DotU to be. A pleasant environment where people can interact, play together and form friendships, inside Azeroth and outside as well. But I also want DotU to be a group facing the hardest content that World of Warcraft has got to offer. Ranked PvP, mythic plus dungeons and mythic raiding.

    The DotU raiding team is very open to new people joining, given them wanting to commit to raiding. The argument in Gchat about giving socials a chance, they have had. Plenty of them even. And people want more?

    In regarding for stuff for socials to do. Us officers run 3 raids a week. For a hobby that is quite a big commitment. I’m pretty much doing raid prework from 18:00 till raid start and studying logs for an hour to an hour and a half after raids. To add a 4th raid a week is not sounding too lucrative to me and my spare time. In Legion this was consistent with Saturday raids being run by Ellinya. But he’s not here anymore, and the rest of the officer team is too busy to run it. Moykky did it for a while, but it was quite taxing on him. Battle for Dazar’Alor is quite taxing on prep work with interrupt rotations, raid splitting, gem handling etc. To lead a raid is not just to log on 5 minutes before raid start and do invites.

    Heroic Sundays was a thing in Antorus, and in Uldir too. The main reason for this was the Argus trinkets in Antorus. To secure the Argus kill each week to level our trinkets, and in Uldir we needed to level our Archives of the Titans buff by getting 3 kills a week, and to get more Azerite for our main raiders still needing an item with that trait. But once the main raid team is “done” with heroic, we don’t have a reason to do that content any longer, and why would we when mythic is available to us? Why replay level 3 over and over when level 4 is still unbeaten.

     In Battle for Dazar’Alor the main raid team was done with Heroic quite fast. There is nothing “mandatory” for us in there at all and the gear outside of the raid was way better; Mythic plus, Warfronts and even random titanforges.

    It’s been clear to us officers from talking to the raiders, and just looking at the signups on a heroic raid, that people can’t be arsed with heroic anymore this tier. So naturally the signups will drop off, and I don’t blame anyone for that. I realize that blows for the socials, but at the end of the day we do recruit for mythic progress and not for endless heroic farming.

    The statement that officers only care about challenging content and ignore the rest. It’s no lie that the mythic raiding is my focus, but it’s not all I do in this guild. I’m around in mythic dungeons with anyone and everyone, if they just ask, Guild chat or whispers. I even ran a Kings Rest +2 this week. I play other games with people inside and outside the raid team. I’m on discord all the time chit chatting with everyone who wants to talk to me.

    And that brings us to another point, cancelled raids.

    I feel people see us officers and the work we do as ignorable. We have raiders, then we don’t. Just logs out without a heads-up, and then 14 days later we get a message saying they can’t play anymore because they’re getting bored. Or not feeling the game anymore. Only Dren could be bothered to tell us he was getting fed up with raiding and wanted out. The rest just logged out and was never seen again, leaving us with half a raid team out of nowhere. So why didn’t we just go heroic on those days and gear up further for mythic progress? The raids were posted as mythic raids, and we wont force people to do content they didn’t sign up for.

    But then why did we cancel the mythic raid on the 10th of March then? It was mythic, and we had 23 signups, three more than required for a full team. We didn’t go because we didn’t see anything being done with what we could assemble. Grong is very unforgiving, requiring 6 healers and 5 ranged interrupters on a 24 sec cooldown, fast communication for backup interrupters (meaning microphone is required for raiding) and high dps. And we didn’t believe it was worth wiping on Grong all night with a group that wouldn’t be able to kill it anyway. Mythic raiding rules is to bring the correct setup or have a bad time, and some bosses are just impossible to do with anything less than that. All our melee knows how it was to be benched on Fettid Devouror in Uldir for instance, or Coven back in Antorus, just because bringing them made the fight impossible.

    To end things off.

    My goal for the guild is to be a pleasant place to be, while providing the hardest content the game has to offer to our members. But the first rule of being a leader is if you try and please everyone, you please no one. If we return two nights mythic, one-night heroic then I believe the signups will drop form the main raiders and the Sunday will be full of social members. On one side the socials get a raid, but the main raid team loses a raid. Can’t please everyone. But maybe it’s not my job to please everyone. The guild is one of the largest on the server and the officer staff is small.

    So, if people want Saturday raids to return, then we need help, because us officers just don’t have the time to do it consistently every week. And I will help to get it started, but I need someone else to take charge on a more permanent basis. But if no one wants to then the truth is we officers don’t have time to organize heroic raids since the main raid team have moved past it and is now doing mythic.
    Help us be part of the solution, or this problem won’t be solved.

     - Grazzy

    Moykky

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2019, 08:01:29 PM »
    I'll just throw in my few cents too..

    Blizzard has done the difficulties for raiding for a reason. You start at easy Normal and learn the basics of fights and get geared for Heroic. Same thing continues on Heroic, get geared, learn more. For me the whole progress and reason doing Normal and Heroic is just mean to an end goal and get tools and gear up for Mythic. That is the the sole goal I'm raiding for, but we aren't a pure Mythic Guild. Some arguments the other night was that we should do more Heroic. On the other hand, some says that we spend too much there as it is. We are at silver lining as always, balancing somewhere between. There is simply no way to make everyone happy here. Some want more Heroic, some can't stand another raid of it.

    We are including socials every tier on the progress through Normal and most through Heroic. Everyone gets the chance to see the content and show their "level", improve if they wish and get help to do it as well. This tier the end of the line of progress for some came half way Heroic, where we needed to start cutting down to get to last bosses. Now after that, we have taken multiple social members through Heroic and getting Curve for them. I'm sure we will still do those raids in the future as Mythic progress starts slowing down, but right now it is time for Mythic progress, or it will fall apart again.

    The thing is we are raiding for progress. I don't think any raider ranked player is raiding for endless Heroic farming. We did do that before around Draenor and like Grazzy said in Legion for trinkets. We didn't really have numbers to go Mythic either. We have grown from that. It's also worth noticing that even now, with almost full raider ranked raid, we couldn't clear Heroic. With full raider ranked raid we most likely could have just done it. It's not as easy as Heroic was last tiers. Carrying doesn't work anymore. Everyone needs working voice coms on Mekkatorq etc.


    So about the other night then. The plan was to aim for Full Clear. That meant, as we wrote on raid planner that majority will be raider ranks to accomplish that goal. We had first wipe at Blockade and with wipeless raid until that, we only had about 20 mins left for Jaina.

    Sunday was special in otherways too. As we wrote, the plan was only to bring couple socials and we had a spreadsheet of the gear we still needed for the raiders. Most good items were already spoken for, before the raid started. We didn't want to bring alts or socials who can't trade the items we did the raid for. Take note that this was first raid like this on this tier and most likely last one as well. We got most items we were after. There is no master looter anymore so doing the raid as we did, was the best way to do it.

    So next time we do Heroic, it will most likely be a social raid and fully open for everyone AGAIN and that means we'll actually bring everyone as well, like we have on social raid nights.

    Next few weeks though, we are aiming for 3 days Mythic, as that's what the raiders requested. But if it shows that we aren't still getting enough signups for Mythic progress on Sundays for example, we will ofcourse reassess of making it social Heroic raid again.

    - Möy

    Bob

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2019, 08:03:13 PM »
    Nicely put Graz, Moyk

    I missed most of the discussion the other night so have only seen bits of the discussion logging in the following morning, one thing which has concerned me is the 'officers don't care about socials' - that annoyed me, I treat everyone the same, but i expect the same from everyone, If i'm online and you need a m+ ask me, I usually have a 10+ knocking about. I'll always help a guildie regardless of their rank (where possible)

    Our aim is to be a social raiding guild, now that doesn't mean we should take everyone just because there are spots to do so, it means filling out the raid so it has the capability to down the bosses we are planning to kill. We have in previous tiers and expansions sacrificed the progression of the raid to try and keep everyone happy, this has led to less than productive raids and some annoyed people, myself included, I don't mind running heroic and bringing people in as long as they merit their spot, the term 'carry' is well known, to 'carry' someone who doesn't know tactics, fails at mechanics, under performs on every level puts extra pressure on those that can, they have to do extra dps, healing to compensate.

    We have always got people their curve, this is something we have wanted to do for everyone who wants it, we have tried to setup normal raids, sign ups got real low, real quick, especially when M+ dropped better gear, we went into heroic and it was a shit show, that put people off, but as Graz has said, i'm willing to come and help with the social raids, but those coming need to pull their weight because without a full raid team, its going to be a long old night.

    - Bob

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2019, 10:51:31 PM »
    I think perhaps a little understanding is needed on both sides. Aside from who's put in the work, why people are or are not there, I think the main issue for socials like myself is that there was a social raid, now there's not. People who aren't on the raid team had an option to raid, they don't anymore. There wasn't a notice about it or a handoff to someone else, it just got canceled and didn't come back. This left people unsure of what was meant to be happening, so then you had people like myself signing up for the fresh mythic raids, or the heroic raid the other night thinking this is where they go now, but that wasn't right either and it's caused some friction. Honestly I think that's all this has been, that many people just didn't know what was happening or what was intended.

    On another note, I'll throw my hat in the ring to organise a Saturday raid. I've led raids before as recently as Ulduar, and some of them even killed bosses. I'm probably not the best qualified; Maybe we'll get signs maybe we won't, maybe we'll make progress, maybe we won't, but I'm willing to give it a shot if others are.

    Bob

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #4 on: March 27, 2019, 01:42:22 PM »
    Thanks for your reply Wyred and the offer to lead a social raid is appreciated, hopefully we see some more replies from those concerned so we can come to a suitable resolution

    Wariss

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #5 on: March 27, 2019, 01:50:18 PM »
    How i have understood it too was: saturday raids were gone, we mixed up social raid with main raid and everyone were confused. I was one of the lucky people who happened to be there in discord when officers happen to talk about it out loud but most people werent. We could try to note people about these changes and keep it clear? I dont think socials we are talking about really expect to get in progress mythic raids, but the saturdays "who ever are bored enough joins" raids dessapearing was the biggest thing. Also as it is, social/alt run will most likely contain wipes and alittle strugle, if you are not ready to see it just dont sign up. For me those runs have been chill and to not be super massively focused full evening. Like Funkyt suggested the other night in discord voice, could try to get saturday back and see if someone of the signed people leads it if we lack officer to do it. Cannot really expect anyone to be there every saturday.

    jopriestess

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #6 on: March 27, 2019, 05:12:48 PM »
    I pretty much agree with what Wyred and Wariss are saying.

    I understand officers are busy, raiders may be bored, socials are not always available in sufficient number/may be ungeared etc.
    I still believe we should normally have enough people interested in a social raid per week.
    If no officer has time to organize and lead them, then maybe someone else can - Wyred or anyone else who's also willing.
    I would not mind re-progressing heroic if needed.

    The reason I got annoyed Sunday is that I had checked lineup a quite a bit after 6 PM and seen a large but <30 group, no selection and no cancellation - I thought it meant we would have a raid with everyone who signed, and possibly some people would be cut later if there were too many wipes (This has happened in the past).
    When I checked later, half of the people had been benched and a small raid consisting mainly of raiders was selected - and yes, there was mention of raider priority and wanting a fast clean run, but every week there's a different plan so who knows what will really happen...

    Late decisions, cancellations, change of plans may happen but are frustrating - particularly frustrating in my case because I often get asked to help out by other guilds which are still progressing heroic, and I reply I can't join their runs because I am supposed to be raiding with the guild...

    Please make decisions and stick to them for a while, because  saturday / no more saturday / sunday / no more sunday / open to social / open with socials but with priority for raiders /thursday this week because we are low on signups etc etc does not help anyone organise things.

    Raiding is the part of the game I enjoy most, so I would REALLY like a regular weekly raid. However, if it can't happen, then just say we don't have social raids and those like me will be looking for other people to raid with on a regular basis.



    Larse

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #7 on: March 27, 2019, 08:43:11 PM »
    Well put everyone, and good to get a proper discussion going about this.

    I'd be up for getting a regular social raid team put together. I've been raid leading for years, most recently in Legion. I think we'll possibly run into an issue with tanks - I can tank it on Essral but I'm not sure who else could just having a cursory glance at the guild list, but why don't we try and get one going this weekend and see what sort of turnout we have? :)


    Larse

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #8 on: March 27, 2019, 11:11:35 PM »
    What day and time would people like? Traditionally we've done Saturday afternoons or evenings but we can do any day really. Anyone have a preference?

    jopriestess

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #9 on: March 28, 2019, 09:06:14 AM »
    For me, I would rather NOT have it on Saturday AFTERNOONs.

    Me and Frere are both not working on that day and it's our best chance to get out and about, Bruitish weather permitting.

    Any evening would be ok, but we would be able to join at least some of the saturday afternoon raids if that is what the majority wants.

    Wadoedena

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 09:41:02 AM »
    Although i'm retired, my afternoons are mostly booked.
    A saterday evening raid suits for me. Other evenings except friday would be OK too.
    I'd loved to raid again. Normal / Heroic would be fine.

    Greetings

    Moykky

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 09:58:53 AM »
    Saturday afternoon raids were a thing we tried in Legion, as we had poll and some people wanted that.
    We later started rotating between every other Sunday raid was 15:00, the other it was at 20:30, because either of the times never suited everyone.


    In BfA we only had Saturday evening raids at 20:30.

    I would suggest you'd try either Wednesday or Saturday at 20:30, or both.

    Because on those Saturday raids that had about 12 - 18 signups, half of them were always raider ranked players.


    tuli

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #12 on: March 28, 2019, 04:20:18 PM »
    I am hoping that I will soon be able to join social raids more often. Maybe even every other week! This Saturday I actually do have the possibility  (and there's currently a raid up to check for interest). I haven't done any raid leading since... uhm... firelands? But I'm willing to spend time reading up and taking notes from graz if someone is needed.

    As for appreciation of officer work; there's a post from "ages" ago! Show your appreciation fellas!

    Larse

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 07:42:50 PM »
    Saturday works for me, also Wednesday evenings would work very well more regularly too. Like Jo says, especially as summer approaches, those Saturdays become more active irl :)

    Signed up for this weeks Saturday social though! Let's see what happens!

    Wyred

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  • Re: Raiders and socials
    « Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 08:46:02 PM »
    For me I prefer Saturday, either afternoon or evening would work.